Kirstie McLeod - The Red Dress [NX 112]

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Welcome to Needle Exchange, conversations on

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the art of thread. I'm Jamie Chalmers, aka Mr

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X Stitch, and today I'm interviewing Kirstie

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McLeod. Kirstie is a textile artist whose extraordinary

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journey began with performance dresses that filled

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galleries, sank into seas, and towered 15 feet

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tall. In this first art for our exchange, we

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trace her early works, her upbringing across

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Venezuela, Nigeria, Japan and beyond, and the

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spark that ignited the Red Dress Project in 2009.

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From the suffocation of stitching inside a Perspex

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cube to the freedom of creating a platform for

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hundreds of voices, this is a story of how a

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bold artistic vision took shape. For another

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artist who takes needlework to unexpected places,

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check out Needle Exchanges 73 and 74 with the

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charming Harriet Riddle, where machine embroidery

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goes global. And if you enjoy this episode, please

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share it with a friend who loves textile art.

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I'll be back next week with the second part of

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our conversation with Kirsty. But for now, enjoy

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the show. The thing that strikes me as curious,

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and I had a chat with Diana Weimar, who is the

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curator of the Tiny Pricks project. I don't know

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if you're familiar with that. Okay, so that's

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a collective embroidery project. She was inspired

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by the outpourings of the president, Donald Trump,

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in his first tenure. And what a wise man he was.

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So she started doing things that reflected that,

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and then collectively over time, more and more

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people have joined in with that project because

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it's become... So many of the phrases are just

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so bizarre and the different contrasts and people

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have just chipped in with their own embroideries

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that have reflected things that have struck a

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chord with them that are of concern. You know,

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it's become a sort of documentary. It's become

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a kind of infographic. The connections between

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her project and your project are very similar.

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And I was talking to her back in a podcast, insert

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podcast number here. About this thing that happens

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when a project stops being your project and it

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becomes everybody else's project. And I'm really

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interested to get your take on that. Yeah, that's

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exactly and entirely what's happened with the

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red dress. I mean, the first few years were really

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just me in this dress, obviously connecting with

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people all over the world, but from my bedroom,

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you know, from my laptop. The first year, I did

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get some funding, so I had help to create the

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dress, stitch it together. But otherwise, it's

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just been me and my laptop and the dress for

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most of the project. And for about the first

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10 years or so, very little people were that

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interested in it. I mean, the dress didn't look

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like what it does now. No one really wanted to

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fund it. No one wanted to show her. Occasionally,

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there'd be a bit of press, but it just really

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was not moving. And there were so many years

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of frustration. And then suddenly, everything

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just took off and it all just... happened momentum

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grew and yeah it was it was exactly that it was

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like just this kind of releasing of this experience

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and what it had been up until that point and

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just letting her go out into the world but I

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think the first couple of years I very much well

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it was an art a piece of art that I used to show

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in art galleries I was a performance installation

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artist fine artist so that was the framework

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that the red dress began in and it was quite

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a lot about me and my ego and it was a lot about

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you know although there was there's always been

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this desire to connect with different cultures

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to create a platform for expression it's always

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been there cross -cultural collaboration but

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it was also a lot about my own identity and growing

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up all over the world and all this and after

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about two years, I suddenly realised, I was like,

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oh, my gosh, this has all got to be totally rethought.

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This dress needs to get out of this gallery setting

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and out into the world. I need to get myself,

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like, stand back from it, just, you know, release

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it. And the most important was to keep the embroiderers

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centre stage and their stories. So the focus

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kind of really left this whole kind of fine art

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place into world voices and collaboration. Did

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that... evolution come naturally did you could

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it have gone in different directions um it did

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come naturally it could have gone in different

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directions but yeah no it was it was it was very

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clear it was very clear and it was kind of over

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a period of time and yeah once I'd made that

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decision a very conscious decision it was like

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okay that feels better like it had been weighing

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heavy it wasn't sitting right um and it was almost

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like it had finally found its place you know

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um which was a very freeing feeling so when you

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started out then yeah there was a sort of there

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was a perspex box and you would sit inside it

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and you would stitch things can you can you just

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talk about the original idea and maybe what you

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thought at the time it would be was it going

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to be like a finite thing were you going to do

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i'm going to do six weeks of this and jobs are

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good and like how did you see it at the start

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it was always going to be a long term project

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so i gave myself 10 years at the yeah that's

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gangster I like that yeah yeah yeah and it was

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number seven I think in a series of very large

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kind of productions involving dresses so this

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is this was my language I'd been working in London

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for about eight ten years or so it was my way

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of creating expression was to use garments and

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textiles and Yeah. So what was the question you

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just asked? I've kind of veered off. It was just

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what was your original vision for it? What did

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you think that dress would be? So a lot of all

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the work I was doing was very focused on women's

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voices, social injustices, equality, oppression,

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all these. All my whole life I've been very preoccupied

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by rights. And so with the red dress, it was

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very much the focus to try and create something

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that would bring people together. instead of

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separating people out around the world, one united

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platform. So the idea initially was that I would

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wear the dress and I would embroider onto it

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for a four -hour period of time, completely locked,

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screwed tight inside this Perspex box. So it

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was a comment on oppression. It was a comment

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on male gaze. It was a comment on not having

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a voice, not being able to be heard, not being

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able to be taken seriously. But at the same time,

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it was... trying to elevate voices, trying to

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create a canvas for all different people to come

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without prejudice. So I think those first few

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years, there was too much going on. When I look

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back on it now, I'm like, ooh. too much going

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on. And the embroidery and the embroidery stories

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and voices was kind of lost within, I think it

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was like my anger and frustration at the world

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and this cube. I think the cube, having a woman

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shot in a box is quite a provocative image. And

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I wanted it to be at the time. And it was like

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a real, like, you know, look at this, you know,

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this is not right. But yeah. once I'd simplified

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things once I understood really where this dress

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needed to go I think because at the beginning

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I didn't really know if I would even be able

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to to connect with people in other countries

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you know I hoped I didn't know if anyone would

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be interested so it was quite an ambitious brief

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at the beginning but yeah once I'd started connecting

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with I mean particularly like refugees from Palestine

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in Lebanon Egypt but Bedouin women in Sinai in

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Egypt and once I was you know had these incredible

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experiences and once you know this embroidery

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had been added to the dress everything just changed

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it was like oh this is so much more important

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now this is so valuable this is so sacred you

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know that what they have just given me is so

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so sacred and it needs to be presented better.

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So then I decided to focus on the empowerment

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of women, the strength of women. So the dress

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is now always displayed very simply on a mannequin

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so that the embroidery can be centre stage as

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their voices are. Yeah, it almost feels like

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you accidentally over -oppressed yourself with

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the cube or something. The fact that you couldn't

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shake that off for such a period of time is almost

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like you lived that situation. Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly. I think it was just this feeling of

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suffocation and oppression. And I'd witnessed

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it in all the countries I'd lived in and also

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in England. You know, it was it was just something

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that I'd always felt. And, you know, without

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going too deep back into myself, I think it was

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trying me trying to figure out who I was trying

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to deal with my own voices, my own experiences,

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my own. you know, memories of living in so many

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different countries and all that that brought.

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And I think, you know, there was a lot of that

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initially. And then, as I said, you know, as

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soon as I realised that, you know, this could

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be a really important platform for other people,

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that's when she flew, when she took off. Yeah.

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And I do want to get to that, but I'm struck

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there's a couple of niggly things now for me.

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So that was number seven in a series. Yes. So

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what were the previous six? What were those pieces?

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So, yeah, we have Emelan, which is a huge blue

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dress, which has a diameter of 16 metres. So

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I used to wear the dress asleep in the middle

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inside gallery spaces. So it was actually commissioned,

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I was commissioned to create a piece for a Mario

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Testino exhibition in Phillips de Puri in London.

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So you can imagine these massive, high, glossy

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fashion images, kind of like double A noughts,

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massive. glossy pictures and they were around

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the sides of this gallery wall and so the dress

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just basically filled the whole space so I was

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pulling the audience into the piece whether they

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wanted to or not because they had to walk all

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over the dress and me to be able to view the

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the works of art on the wall and it was interesting

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because some people would find the whole thing

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very awkward and they didn't want to stand up

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on the fabric and they didn't didn't want to

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come anywhere near me asleep in the middle but

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then others had no qualms just kind of rolling

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around in the fabric and you know, coming to

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try and chat to me and prod me and all this.

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So that was an interesting one. I did a piece

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in the Guernsey Sea, which is called Lacrimosa,

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honouring all the people, sailors that had died

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there. And it was all about the Guernsey jumper.

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So I wore a dress that was knitted from 50 ,000

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metres of fishing line and it was weighted to

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the seabed. So I was locked in this kind of purgatory

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style kind of battle between like trying to get

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to the surface and then being pulled down every

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time. So I had divers under there with oxygen

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and things to give me. It was very, yeah, very

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difficult piece to do. And then also another

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one to mention is a costume for an opera in Ireland.

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Phaedra was the opera. So they wanted, the brief

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was a 15 foot tall dress that evolved over the

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15 minute performance, kind of degraded and it

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had to revolve. at the same time. So I worked

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with engineers and all sorts to create this big

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kind of crinoline that was wired up with irrigation

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tubes that slowly dripped water onto this dress

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made of soluflees for embroidery. So the whole

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thing just gradually began to kind of disintegrate,

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not like a big whoosh, which was an option, but

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we decided to do it subtly. So it was all kind

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of degraded and gnarled and it revealed this

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whole kind of battered inner core. So that was

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15 foot tall, this dress. So yeah, they've all

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been pretty epic. I was going to say, this one

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now then with, I don't know, 360 contributors,

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because it's like normal human size, almost sounds

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like it's quite a modest piece by comparison.

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Yeah, and also the time is what is so different

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with the red dress. All the others were kind

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of, you know, two, three months. creation there'd

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be a performance an exhibition and then that's

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done you know so um emma lan was shown a few

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times but yeah the dress it's been you know so

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many years of working with the dress oh there's

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too many questions now am i so this is going

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to be a 17 part podcast now so let's go so emma

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lan so blue but how 16 meter diameter did you

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say yes so i had to hire to make the dress because

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the seams were so long. It was like making a

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circus tent. Is there ever a point when you go,

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I think that's big enough? It doesn't feel like

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there is. No, I pushed myself so much. It was

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always about making this big impact with me then.

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Yeah. And everything was high visual. So Emma

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Lamb was like bright blue. Lacrimosa obviously

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was under the water, but all the photographs

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in the film were like these kind of very greeny

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blue colours. Yeah, I'm obsessed with colour.

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I'm kind of synesthetic, so I see colour when

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I hear and experience things. I love synesthesia,

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right? There was a guy I knew called Jimmy McBride

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and he was synesthetic and he was a weaver and

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he would weave code words. For him, it was letters

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turned into colours. So he did a whole series

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of fabrics that were to do with queer slur words

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because he was queer, so bitch, queen, those

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kind of things. And he would weave the fabrics

00:13:07.899 --> 00:13:10.159
so they looked like plaid. But they'd have those

00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:12.360
words encoded into them. And unless you knew

00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:14.000
what his code was, you wouldn't have a clue what

00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:16.519
was going on. I love synesthesia. I'm quite jealous

00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:19.139
of that. That's like a superpower. So when you're

00:13:19.139 --> 00:13:21.100
lying in the middle of that thing, A, did you

00:13:21.100 --> 00:13:22.940
ever actually go to sleep? How long were you

00:13:22.940 --> 00:13:25.679
in there for? It was always three or four hours.

00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:27.740
All my pieces were three or four hours. So for

00:13:27.740 --> 00:13:30.019
the big, the first event at Phillips de Prairie,

00:13:30.139 --> 00:13:32.360
I took sleeping pills because I really wanted

00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:36.860
to. I had one of my best friends came to just

00:13:36.860 --> 00:13:39.179
be the watcher, the observer to keep me safe.

00:13:39.340 --> 00:13:40.759
And then there are obviously all the gallery

00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:43.820
people as well. So I was definitely very drowsy,

00:13:43.820 --> 00:13:46.620
but I wouldn't say I was completely out. I was

00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:50.080
kind of aware in and out. And so Moe sponsored

00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:52.759
the event. It was one of those, you know, kind

00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:56.340
of London things. So everyone got quite drunk.

00:13:56.419 --> 00:13:59.240
So by the end of the evening. There was a chap

00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:01.059
trying to snuggle in, you know, just near me

00:14:01.059 --> 00:14:03.279
and people kind of walking and stepping over

00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:07.539
me and things. So it was it was hard to get a

00:14:07.539 --> 00:14:10.340
proper rest. But it was this. Yeah, I used to

00:14:10.340 --> 00:14:12.139
put myself through a lot in these performances.

00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:14.320
And just like I think it was all about kind of

00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:19.460
vulnerability. And yeah, not was it scary? Was

00:14:19.460 --> 00:14:23.440
it scary? It wasn't. It wasn't pleasant. No,

00:14:23.539 --> 00:14:25.759
but I think the kind of the message I was trying

00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:29.440
to. to put out was was more important to me it

00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:32.340
was just this and and how people interacted with

00:14:32.340 --> 00:14:34.700
the work was just so telling you know and some

00:14:34.700 --> 00:14:37.240
people had no disregard no regard or respect

00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:40.700
for me there found it all quite funny and but

00:14:40.700 --> 00:14:43.220
most people did most people were like oh that's

00:14:43.220 --> 00:14:45.600
I really don't want to go near her you know she's

00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:47.919
sleeping I'm gonna like tiptoe right around the

00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:51.139
outside or even avoid that space entirely because

00:14:51.139 --> 00:14:53.539
I don't I just find that too uncomfortable one

00:14:53.539 --> 00:14:57.140
time I performed it I put microphones underneath

00:14:57.140 --> 00:15:00.200
the fabric in various places so you got all this

00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:04.100
crunching like sound it was a it wasn't a real

00:15:04.100 --> 00:15:06.000
silk because it was so massive it was like a

00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.159
synthetic silk but it had that kind of slightly

00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:11.080
crunchy feeling when you walked on it and it

00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:13.120
was all padded up with duvets so it was very

00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:16.080
squishy it was like a landscape to walk in and

00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.779
out of and where does where is that piece now

00:15:18.779 --> 00:15:22.360
it's in storage in my in my garage yeah it's

00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:26.169
in a huge a huge box i have I used to have like,

00:15:26.309 --> 00:15:28.830
I don't know, three or four massive storage boxes

00:15:28.830 --> 00:15:31.289
of all the duvets that went underneath it. I

00:15:31.289 --> 00:15:33.370
have actually given those away now, but I still

00:15:33.370 --> 00:15:35.450
have the dress because I'm like, well, maybe

00:15:35.450 --> 00:15:38.289
one day I'll do something with her again. Just

00:15:38.289 --> 00:15:40.610
go in and lie on top of it every now and again,

00:15:40.649 --> 00:15:43.610
just for old time's sake or something. OK, so

00:15:43.610 --> 00:15:47.960
there's that one. Then a Guernsey. um jumper

00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:51.799
dress made out of how how much fishing 50 000

00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:54.539
do you say it was 50 000 either 20 or 50 000

00:15:54.539 --> 00:15:57.480
yeah it was not all of it was used but i was

00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:00.200
sponsored by a fishing line company um which

00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:01.700
was fun because i always used to try and get

00:16:01.700 --> 00:16:04.700
some help with all these products um so they

00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:07.279
sent me reels and reels and reels of it and it

00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:10.000
was very fine so i've got to forget all the weights

00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:12.600
now but there's um some that are almost like

00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:15.659
hair they're so fine so it was right a combination

00:16:15.659 --> 00:16:18.080
of that and then the one up and i worked with

00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:20.840
two professional knitters who were machine knitters

00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:23.799
in london at the time to make it because i i'm

00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:25.779
not a knitter i'd like to be but i'm not yet

00:16:25.779 --> 00:16:28.820
so yeah it took them a few days of sampling to

00:16:28.820 --> 00:16:31.980
be able to work to work the the yarn whatever

00:16:31.980 --> 00:16:34.720
through the through the machine because obviously

00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:36.820
it's got its own texture and it's quite bendy

00:16:36.820 --> 00:16:40.220
and unforgiving so i had to do lots of samples

00:16:40.220 --> 00:16:42.399
and adjusting but beautiful what they created

00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:47.779
so amazing So how big was that? So normal size

00:16:47.779 --> 00:16:52.080
for me at the top, but it went down something

00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:57.480
like six metres. OK. And then you went out into

00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:01.860
the Guernsey Sea. Yes. And didn't drown somehow.

00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:05.380
Didn't drown, yeah. And there was like a medic.

00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:08.740
It was all organised. So it was commissioned

00:17:08.740 --> 00:17:11.619
from the Guernsey Arts Commission on the island.

00:17:11.819 --> 00:17:16.200
So they had all the health and safety very sorted.

00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:21.420
But again, it was very cold. It was very uncomfortable

00:17:21.420 --> 00:17:26.019
to wear. And obviously feeling restricted and

00:17:26.019 --> 00:17:28.960
being pulled down in water is, I mean, it's terrifying,

00:17:29.180 --> 00:17:32.349
really. But it wasn't like we were... obviously

00:17:32.349 --> 00:17:34.130
with six meters we weren't kind of fully out

00:17:34.130 --> 00:17:36.289
in the depths you know we were we were close

00:17:36.289 --> 00:17:39.069
to shore and there was even like steps to get

00:17:39.069 --> 00:17:41.789
down into the sea and stuff so it was very well

00:17:41.789 --> 00:17:45.410
planned um but I came up did you have to do like

00:17:45.410 --> 00:17:47.890
training trainings you know like swimming in

00:17:47.890 --> 00:17:49.910
your pajamas like you're supposed to do when

00:17:49.910 --> 00:17:51.589
you're a kid did you have to do like quite a

00:17:51.589 --> 00:17:53.369
bit of that swimming with extra weight and stuff

00:17:53.369 --> 00:17:56.750
I should do any training I know I did no training

00:17:58.349 --> 00:18:00.490
I'm a very confident swimmer. I think I can swim

00:18:00.490 --> 00:18:03.509
before I walk. So, no, it was the cold that was

00:18:03.509 --> 00:18:05.930
the issue because I'm quite small and I really,

00:18:06.049 --> 00:18:08.650
really, really struggled with that. Were you

00:18:08.650 --> 00:18:11.049
wearing a wetsuit or anything or were you going

00:18:11.049 --> 00:18:12.869
for the aesthetic? So I guess you couldn't, right?

00:18:13.269 --> 00:18:17.609
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. So the piece that

00:18:17.609 --> 00:18:21.640
was shown in the exhibition was a film. And photographs.

00:18:21.740 --> 00:18:23.779
And actually the photographs came out amazingly,

00:18:23.900 --> 00:18:26.539
really ethereal. So I actually have a limited,

00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:28.940
an edition of those photographs that they've

00:18:28.940 --> 00:18:30.940
sold quite a lot. I mean, you can't really see

00:18:30.940 --> 00:18:32.539
a huge amount really, but it's just all about

00:18:32.539 --> 00:18:35.160
kind of, yeah, kind of ethereal shapes and it's

00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:37.079
very death space, which was the whole point of

00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:41.200
the, of the work in the first place. Okay. And

00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:44.900
then prior to that, then we talked about a dress

00:18:44.900 --> 00:18:49.440
that was 15 foot tall. Yeah, the Phaedra dress.

00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:53.920
Go on. Yeah, so this was Happy Days Festival,

00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:55.960
I think it was called, in Ellenskillen in Ireland.

00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:01.640
So the director of this opera, who I knew from

00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:04.440
London, Sophie Hunter, wrote to me. She'd seen

00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:07.660
the various other dresses I'd done. And also

00:19:07.660 --> 00:19:09.180
I'd done a wedding dress for a mutual friend

00:19:09.180 --> 00:19:11.240
of ours. That's a whole other story. It was down

00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:13.559
in a salt mine, I'll tell you that. I was going

00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:15.160
to say, was that a normal wedding dress? But

00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:18.170
no, of course not. Absolutely not. So she knew

00:19:18.170 --> 00:19:20.089
what I was doing and she said, is there any way

00:19:20.089 --> 00:19:22.470
you could create a dress for this opera? It's

00:19:22.470 --> 00:19:24.750
15 minutes, but it needs to be, you know, 15

00:19:24.750 --> 00:19:26.970
foot tall. It needs to revolve. It needs to degrade

00:19:26.970 --> 00:19:29.650
over 15 minutes. And it was weird for like a

00:19:29.650 --> 00:19:32.210
second. I was like, what? But then I was like,

00:19:32.269 --> 00:19:34.769
oh, Sully Fleece. I said, yeah, I can do it.

00:19:34.809 --> 00:19:37.569
I know what I'll use. Because I'd had this experience

00:19:37.569 --> 00:19:41.609
when I was at uni of Sully Fleece. where i'd

00:19:41.609 --> 00:19:44.730
um made this whole dress they can make an hours

00:19:44.730 --> 00:19:46.710
and hours making it and then i died i went to

00:19:46.710 --> 00:19:49.269
dip diet in tea and i pulled up just the seams

00:19:49.269 --> 00:19:52.809
and i was like what this happened i had no idea

00:19:52.809 --> 00:19:55.390
what solid piece was so i just had these seams

00:19:55.390 --> 00:19:57.150
in my hand i was like what i don't understand

00:19:57.150 --> 00:20:00.349
so anyway i yeah so i've used solid piece a lot

00:20:00.349 --> 00:20:05.220
and Yeah. So that was interesting. It was it

00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:08.500
was extensive and it was a lot of pressure because

00:20:08.500 --> 00:20:10.779
there were two performances. I had to have three

00:20:10.779 --> 00:20:13.799
practice dresses as well. So it's just so much

00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:16.119
sewing. Basically, it was really roughly and

00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:19.079
fluffily on solid fleece dress and a meringue

00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:21.680
like wedding dress style, but huge and long.

00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:26.339
And then, yeah, this internal core that was steel

00:20:26.339 --> 00:20:29.140
and then we are wrapped with irrigation tubes,

00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:32.410
but also. It was wrapped with all to do with

00:20:32.410 --> 00:20:34.710
the story of Phaedra, like horse hair and red,

00:20:34.769 --> 00:20:36.549
all this kind of ribbon and tape. And it was

00:20:36.549 --> 00:20:38.910
like this really kind of bodily kind of inner

00:20:38.910 --> 00:20:42.009
core. It was quite gross, really. It was dark

00:20:42.009 --> 00:20:44.630
and upsetting. That was the point of the performance.

00:20:45.529 --> 00:20:48.630
So when the solid fleas began to slowly melt

00:20:48.630 --> 00:20:52.009
and degrade and kind of trickle and fall, it

00:20:52.009 --> 00:20:56.440
just revealed this inner core. But the opera

00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:59.579
singer, wow, what an amazing woman. Ruby Fidazine

00:20:59.579 --> 00:21:02.180
is her name. She's a mezzo -soprano opera singer.

00:21:02.420 --> 00:21:05.259
And the stuff she had to go through with that.

00:21:05.380 --> 00:21:07.700
I mean, so first of all, it was in an old equestrian

00:21:07.700 --> 00:21:10.819
centre, so there's all the sawdust on the floor.

00:21:10.980 --> 00:21:13.119
So she had to be whisked in right before the

00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:15.079
performance started and she used to often have

00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:17.480
to cover her face because of the dust. She was

00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:20.460
cherry -pickered into the dress and out because

00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:22.500
she couldn't, it was just so tall, obviously.

00:21:23.230 --> 00:21:25.069
So I was like constantly climbing up and down

00:21:25.069 --> 00:21:28.470
the sides, trying to keep everything ready and

00:21:28.470 --> 00:21:32.789
working. And then just the apprehension of, you

00:21:32.789 --> 00:21:34.890
know, the tap gets turned on. Is it going to

00:21:34.890 --> 00:21:36.730
dissolve? Is it going to work? You know, there

00:21:36.730 --> 00:21:39.670
was so much that could go wrong. So, yeah, luckily,

00:21:39.829 --> 00:21:42.009
both performances were brilliant, really worked.

00:21:42.190 --> 00:21:43.789
And the audience, because I had the pleasure

00:21:43.789 --> 00:21:46.710
of being able to see their faces. You can see

00:21:46.710 --> 00:21:48.029
them after a few minutes. They're like rubbing

00:21:48.029 --> 00:21:51.210
their eyes. what's going on like then suddenly

00:21:51.210 --> 00:21:53.029
something just falls off and they're like what

00:21:53.029 --> 00:21:55.569
they couldn't believe what they were seeing which

00:21:55.569 --> 00:21:59.349
was magical that's so good that's so good god

00:21:59.349 --> 00:22:02.509
that's just bonkers uh just an aside i love opera

00:22:02.509 --> 00:22:05.170
and i love ballet right and i've only i've not

00:22:05.170 --> 00:22:07.569
seen opera for real i don't think i have seen

00:22:07.569 --> 00:22:09.869
the ballet for real but the thing i love about

00:22:09.869 --> 00:22:12.839
it is like every now and again you sort of you

00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:14.680
drift and you just get absorbed in the story.

00:22:14.740 --> 00:22:16.200
And then you go, oh, bloody hell, she's been

00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:17.839
singing really well at the top of her voice for

00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:19.819
the past 20 minutes. Or, oh, bloomin' heck, that

00:22:19.819 --> 00:22:21.700
person's been standing on tiptoe for 15 minutes

00:22:21.700 --> 00:22:23.900
or something. You know, I just love that discord,

00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:26.500
how you sort of, you forget the magnificence

00:22:26.500 --> 00:22:28.160
of the performance. You're just going to get

00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:30.759
carried away with it. And then, by the way, like,

00:22:30.819 --> 00:22:33.180
that's just such a numpty thing to say, though.

00:22:33.259 --> 00:22:36.299
But, okay. Well, I feel like now, because that's

00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:39.099
three of the seven, I feel like, I don't know

00:22:39.099 --> 00:22:40.740
whether any of them have ever been, talk about

00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:42.950
the wedding dress, then. Yeah, the wedding dress.

00:22:42.990 --> 00:22:44.910
So this was for a very good friend of mine who's

00:22:44.910 --> 00:22:46.910
a performance artist called Eloise Fornelas.

00:22:47.049 --> 00:22:50.309
And she and her actually ex -husband now, but

00:22:50.309 --> 00:22:52.809
David Birkin, both artists, performance artists,

00:22:52.910 --> 00:22:55.630
they were to be married inside a salt mine in

00:22:55.630 --> 00:22:59.170
Wales. So even for the wedding, we were all in

00:22:59.170 --> 00:23:02.529
hard hats and going down in elevators into this.

00:23:02.789 --> 00:23:06.049
The actual ceremony was just absolutely stunning.

00:23:06.210 --> 00:23:08.670
And it took place in this cave, really. And it

00:23:08.670 --> 00:23:11.470
was just... tiny little candles all the way around.

00:23:11.910 --> 00:23:14.009
So when Eloise asked me, I mean we were very

00:23:14.009 --> 00:23:16.430
good friends at the time anyway, I'd made her

00:23:16.430 --> 00:23:18.690
loads of little bits and bobs to wear and she

00:23:18.690 --> 00:23:21.349
said about the wedding dress I was like of course

00:23:21.349 --> 00:23:23.329
I'm going to do that for you of course and so

00:23:23.329 --> 00:23:25.150
we just thought well what are we going to do

00:23:25.150 --> 00:23:28.029
and then after a chat and obviously I know her

00:23:28.029 --> 00:23:31.569
work very well which is kind of intertwined in

00:23:31.569 --> 00:23:34.029
the dress but we decided on basing it on the

00:23:34.029 --> 00:23:38.769
goddess Artemis, goddess of the hunt and so She

00:23:38.769 --> 00:23:42.490
has this huge crown of antlers that I worked

00:23:42.490 --> 00:23:45.710
with a milliner in London to create. And the

00:23:45.710 --> 00:23:47.789
veil was just placed over the top of the antlers.

00:23:47.950 --> 00:23:51.349
So it was this massive space for her, just walking

00:23:51.349 --> 00:23:53.569
down the aisle, all this kind of extended space

00:23:53.569 --> 00:23:55.589
and then this massive crown of antlers. So that

00:23:55.589 --> 00:24:00.609
was strong. She wanted to ride into battle like

00:24:00.609 --> 00:24:05.509
Boudicca with her breasts on show. Lots of her

00:24:05.509 --> 00:24:09.019
performance art, she's naked. So I was like,

00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:12.440
oh, I mean, I get I get why you want to do that.

00:24:12.500 --> 00:24:14.839
But I just I'm not sure. I'm not sure that's

00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:17.380
what's your granny going to say. Yeah, exactly.

00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:20.680
So in the end, what we did was I did this with

00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:25.279
his corset, really like tiny corsets. And it

00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:27.859
was all in different metallic organzas, different

00:24:27.859 --> 00:24:31.519
shades with antiques, Parisian silver lace. And

00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:33.799
then they had this, so it did stop under her

00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:36.140
boobs, but we just draped this really lovely

00:24:36.140 --> 00:24:39.460
antique silver lace on the top. So if you really

00:24:39.460 --> 00:24:41.599
looked, you could see, but it was enough. And

00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:44.099
she was happy with that because, you know, and

00:24:44.099 --> 00:24:47.480
then the skirt, wow, the skirt was. absolutely

00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:50.680
huge. And it was layers and layers of different

00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:53.759
shades of silver and kind of coppery colours,

00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:56.799
silk organza. And they were all pleated and folded.

00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:58.960
And so obviously you can see through all the

00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:01.200
different layers. So it was this idea of like

00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:04.599
an armour, like a soft armour. And then she has

00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:07.480
this, in all these paintings she was doing, she'd

00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:10.839
do this red line going from whichever being or

00:25:10.839 --> 00:25:14.680
creature's mouth going up into... into their

00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:16.660
backsides it was like this kind of cycle that

00:25:16.660 --> 00:25:18.740
she used to do so like well we've got to have

00:25:18.740 --> 00:25:20.900
the red line in it so it was this whole plume

00:25:20.900 --> 00:25:24.980
of red going all the way down the back of the

00:25:24.980 --> 00:25:27.380
train so yeah it was extraordinary it got quite

00:25:27.380 --> 00:25:31.180
a lot of um press at the time but yeah and it

00:25:31.180 --> 00:25:34.640
was it was pretty unique and what did the groom

00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:41.000
wear just he wore vintage um military uniform

00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:45.930
i believe it was he's It was half Russian, half,

00:25:46.170 --> 00:25:49.589
I think it was Russia. It was a very beautifully

00:25:49.589 --> 00:25:55.250
tailored army uniform, military uniform. It looked

00:25:55.250 --> 00:25:58.089
great. And all the dress code for the wedding

00:25:58.089 --> 00:26:00.690
was, what was it, something like beautifully

00:26:00.690 --> 00:26:03.150
dark or something like that. So it was extraordinary

00:26:03.150 --> 00:26:05.890
outfits left, right and centre. So, yeah, memorable.

00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:08.559
Now I'm going to take a punt and assume that

00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:10.519
she's not listening to this podcast now so I

00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:11.980
can ask a few more questions about this lady

00:26:11.980 --> 00:26:14.019
because I'm kind of curious. Is the rest of her

00:26:14.019 --> 00:26:16.640
life like that? Or, for instance, I just had

00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:18.599
to take my children on the school run and it's

00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:20.380
quite a mundane and stressful experience and

00:26:20.380 --> 00:26:22.519
I can't help but consider the contrast between

00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:25.339
the wedding that we've spoken of in a salt mine

00:26:25.339 --> 00:26:28.180
in Wales and shouting at your children to put

00:26:28.180 --> 00:26:30.329
their shoes on for the 20th time. Yeah, she's

00:26:30.329 --> 00:26:33.869
not a mum, doesn't have kids. And she's now in

00:26:33.869 --> 00:26:36.289
a same -sex relationship and lives in Greece.

00:26:36.549 --> 00:26:39.470
So, yeah, her life is definitely... On the edge

00:26:39.470 --> 00:26:42.809
of a cliff in a house made of sugar. I mean,

00:26:42.849 --> 00:26:45.109
fair play. You know, I think there are some people

00:26:45.109 --> 00:26:46.549
like that, aren't there, who can't be contained.

00:26:46.630 --> 00:26:49.410
I think that's quite remarkable. And she has

00:26:49.410 --> 00:26:51.269
this chihuahua, well, she had this chihuahua

00:26:51.269 --> 00:26:53.009
that she'd bring everywhere with her, Chi -Chi.

00:26:53.390 --> 00:26:56.619
So it was always Eloise and... and Chi Chi together

00:26:56.619 --> 00:27:01.339
I think she was even I can't remember I don't

00:27:01.339 --> 00:27:04.390
yeah uh yes because some people i've met artists

00:27:04.390 --> 00:27:06.289
who like they're just making the art that they

00:27:06.289 --> 00:27:08.069
have to make because it's the only art that they

00:27:08.069 --> 00:27:10.509
can make that's what they put on their the planet

00:27:10.509 --> 00:27:13.029
for so you know fair play for embracing it i

00:27:13.029 --> 00:27:15.750
guess um are there any other noteworthy so we

00:27:15.750 --> 00:27:17.430
don't yes we've done like three out of the seven

00:27:17.430 --> 00:27:19.450
projects are there any should we can we do all

00:27:19.450 --> 00:27:21.609
seven can you recall them all i think i guess

00:27:21.609 --> 00:27:23.369
the red dress is number seven isn't it so yeah

00:27:23.369 --> 00:27:25.750
they're the kind of they're the high impact ones

00:27:25.750 --> 00:27:28.670
i'll just briefly just say there was one that

00:27:28.670 --> 00:27:30.700
was a stop animation of a little black dress

00:27:30.700 --> 00:27:33.339
unraveling and nailing itself to the floor trapping

00:27:33.339 --> 00:27:36.920
the wearer inside like a it was like a up yours

00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:38.799
from the little black dress to the lady just

00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:40.940
I've had enough of being paraded around this

00:27:40.940 --> 00:27:43.480
is what I'm going to do to you and then yeah

00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:46.660
I did about maybe five different wedding dresses

00:27:46.660 --> 00:27:50.940
as well off and then two for events for various

00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:53.819
events but kind of for women in London and it

00:27:53.819 --> 00:27:55.900
was a really exciting time but I never made any

00:27:55.900 --> 00:27:59.960
money I mean I was just a waitress waitress to

00:27:59.960 --> 00:28:03.039
earn my money work was great but it was not sustainable

00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:05.160
i couldn't earn a living from it in any way and

00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:06.980
and most of the time because i'd often be working

00:28:06.980 --> 00:28:10.759
with um my collaborator gail on the dresses not

00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:12.460
so much for the art pieces but definitely for

00:28:12.460 --> 00:28:15.220
the wedding dresses um who's a couturier and

00:28:15.220 --> 00:28:17.920
amazing and so she needed paying the materials

00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:19.839
needed to be bought they're all silks i mean

00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:23.269
it's massive costs So, you know, some of these

00:28:23.269 --> 00:28:25.329
dresses without my time are kind of three or

00:28:25.329 --> 00:28:27.750
four grand. So if I work on my time, I think

00:28:27.750 --> 00:28:30.029
two months on a dress. I mean, it's just it's

00:28:30.029 --> 00:28:33.609
not affordable. So but it was great, great practice,

00:28:33.809 --> 00:28:36.250
great learning, great to get out there. And I

00:28:36.250 --> 00:28:38.609
think I didn't I straddled the fashion and the

00:28:38.609 --> 00:28:40.069
art world. People didn't know where to place

00:28:40.069 --> 00:28:42.390
me. But what was great is that no one else was

00:28:42.390 --> 00:28:44.950
doing it. So, you know, I got a lot of exhibitions.

00:28:45.109 --> 00:28:48.750
I got a lot of exposure on things. But then I

00:28:48.750 --> 00:28:51.269
decided to focus all my efforts on the red dress.

00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:54.799
Because that's what felt much more nourishing

00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:58.259
and real and important. And I think it also coincided

00:28:58.259 --> 00:29:00.819
with me finding yoga and meditation and becoming

00:29:00.819 --> 00:29:03.400
a mom and all these kind of things. I kind of

00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:07.490
settled. down yeah it's good into a little cube

00:29:07.490 --> 00:29:11.430
for a while yeah after the cube I settled down

00:29:11.430 --> 00:29:17.930
I feel like some of the rage might have come

00:29:17.930 --> 00:29:19.529
from some of the other projects to be honest

00:29:19.529 --> 00:29:21.309
I'm glad that there were some that maybe didn't

00:29:21.309 --> 00:29:23.329
involve personal jeopardy but it sounds like

00:29:23.329 --> 00:29:26.329
that's quite a recurring theme as you look back

00:29:26.329 --> 00:29:30.170
so 2009 was when the red dress started yeah and

00:29:30.170 --> 00:29:33.579
so So you started stitching and with the motifs,

00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:36.740
were you just intuitively embroidering onto it

00:29:36.740 --> 00:29:39.059
whatever came to mind or were there deliberate

00:29:39.059 --> 00:29:40.660
things that you were putting there in the first

00:29:40.660 --> 00:29:43.940
place? So, yeah, so my only additions at that

00:29:43.940 --> 00:29:46.160
point were just what I was doing in performance.

00:29:46.380 --> 00:29:49.460
So I probably did maybe three of those. Those

00:29:49.460 --> 00:29:52.599
were actually interesting. It's very hard to

00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:54.579
sew onto a dress that you're wearing, especially

00:29:54.579 --> 00:29:57.619
when it's that long. So I didn't think about

00:29:57.619 --> 00:30:00.130
that before I... you know just designed it as

00:30:00.130 --> 00:30:02.250
like so then I think I even had to put a little

00:30:02.250 --> 00:30:04.190
slit in it so I could get my hand in and yeah

00:30:04.190 --> 00:30:06.470
right yeah yeah and obviously there's lights

00:30:06.470 --> 00:30:10.029
and there's people and so it wasn't what I embroider

00:30:10.029 --> 00:30:12.630
now I like I really like my piece I love stitching

00:30:12.630 --> 00:30:16.250
in community Or I love to just be quiet, you

00:30:16.250 --> 00:30:19.769
know. But to have lights on you and people peering

00:30:19.769 --> 00:30:22.410
in and everything, it's not that comfortable.

00:30:22.589 --> 00:30:26.069
So I didn't do my best work in those times. But

00:30:26.069 --> 00:30:28.549
it was more kind of mark making, I would say,

00:30:28.650 --> 00:30:31.470
during those performance pieces. I have done

00:30:31.470 --> 00:30:33.950
lots of intentional embroidery on the dress as

00:30:33.950 --> 00:30:37.549
well over the years. Often it's to mark a specific

00:30:37.549 --> 00:30:40.509
event or experience, someone that needs to be

00:30:40.509 --> 00:30:42.269
honoured, someone that needs to be remembered.

00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:45.819
The spider web is mine on the back. I put that

00:30:45.819 --> 00:30:50.180
on in 2012 at a time when no one was that interested.

00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:52.599
And I felt very frustrated with the project.

00:30:52.700 --> 00:30:56.380
And it was this desire to try and create this

00:30:56.380 --> 00:30:59.559
web of connection around the world. Yeah. So

00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:02.359
it was like, just just put that on. And actually,

00:31:02.539 --> 00:31:05.299
it's the whole idea of spiders and arachne and

00:31:05.299 --> 00:31:08.579
mythology and spinning and weaving and stories.

00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:12.859
you know fascinates me so and also I do a cluster

00:31:12.859 --> 00:31:15.539
of stars in a specific color every time the dress

00:31:15.539 --> 00:31:18.599
is exhibited somewhere so you'll see swathes

00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:20.960
of different colored stars and it looks better

00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:22.960
the more I'm doing so it started off just like

00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:25.660
pink from Kosovo when we were in Kosovo and then

00:31:25.660 --> 00:31:27.779
it was blue into Bosnia and Herzegovina and then

00:31:27.779 --> 00:31:29.880
it was yellow into Poland and yeah so you'll

00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:31.980
see around the dress that you've got all that

00:31:31.980 --> 00:31:34.420
as well I like it because it kind of it it's

00:31:34.420 --> 00:31:37.000
time and place it's a memory and it's um yeah

00:31:38.320 --> 00:31:42.980
Was the decision to embroider on it, was it just

00:31:42.980 --> 00:31:46.279
purely mark making or were you also leaning into

00:31:46.279 --> 00:31:49.500
the embroideries, women's craft, all of that

00:31:49.500 --> 00:31:54.839
narrative? Yeah, I mean, in the installation

00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:57.160
at the beginning, definitely. And I'm thinking

00:31:57.160 --> 00:31:58.980
of a particular book called Subversive Stitch

00:31:58.980 --> 00:32:02.059
back there. Yeah, Rosika Parker. God bless her.

00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:06.059
Yeah. That really informed a lot of the work

00:32:06.059 --> 00:32:09.440
I was doing and this idea of, you know, women's

00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:12.900
work and this suppressive kind of head down,

00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:15.799
you know. But actually what's going on on the

00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:17.779
fabric is an entirely different thing. You know,

00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:19.599
it's actually quite an aggressive act in a way.

00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:21.900
It's like this puncturing with a sharp object

00:32:21.900 --> 00:32:26.140
and it's every stitch has an intention. And it

00:32:26.140 --> 00:32:28.559
has the potential to be subverted in all sorts

00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:30.599
of different ways. You know, who knows what you're

00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:33.160
stitching? I did a piece when I was doing that

00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:35.960
performance in the Royal Academy. I stitched

00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:40.319
in human hair. OK. Yeah. So that was that was

00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:42.680
it. Yeah. It's kind of like everyone's like,

00:32:42.779 --> 00:32:44.980
oh, what a lovely scene. You know, and they come

00:32:44.980 --> 00:32:50.099
closer and it's like, oh, God. Quite a pain to

00:32:50.099 --> 00:32:51.779
work with human hair as well, isn't it? It's

00:32:51.779 --> 00:32:54.269
strong, but it isn't strong. Yeah, and it was

00:32:54.269 --> 00:32:56.789
going all over the place. But yeah, I did like

00:32:56.789 --> 00:33:01.529
a kind of sacred geometric kind of symbol in

00:33:01.529 --> 00:33:05.309
the human hair. It's interesting, though, that

00:33:05.309 --> 00:33:09.789
in some ways the embroidery and like because

00:33:09.789 --> 00:33:11.829
of the subversive stitch and all that, but actually

00:33:11.829 --> 00:33:15.710
you've managed to kind of turn it into a tool

00:33:15.710 --> 00:33:19.019
of power. kind of haven't you it's like you've

00:33:19.019 --> 00:33:21.259
proven that because the thing that's always struck

00:33:21.259 --> 00:33:22.980
me about needlework anyway and i can't remember

00:33:22.980 --> 00:33:24.920
when it struck me but it's a ubiquity of it you

00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:27.119
go to any corner of the world and embroidery

00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:29.180
is there and people know how to do it and it's

00:33:29.180 --> 00:33:33.400
really tangible it's really ground level it really

00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:35.319
connects people and there's a real honesty to

00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:37.619
that and i think it's interesting how we do because

00:33:37.619 --> 00:33:40.720
of commercialized marketing that's where we get

00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:42.359
the lady sits in the corner and she does the

00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:44.259
needlework and the man goes and makes art and

00:33:44.259 --> 00:33:47.119
conquers mountains and aren't we great that But

00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:50.319
actually, then you've re -appropriated it and

00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:52.579
kind of gone, no, we do it to tell the truth.

00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:56.039
Yeah, I think so. And I think it's like, if you're

00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:58.660
not going to listen to our voices, then listen

00:33:58.660 --> 00:34:01.059
to this. You know, you can't ignore this. And

00:34:01.059 --> 00:34:04.200
yes, you can, because it's often craft, whatever.

00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:06.640
I mean, I'm so tired of this discussion. It just

00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:10.619
infuriates me. Creating art, whatever, with paint,

00:34:10.699 --> 00:34:12.639
with stitching, with thread, with drawing, it's

00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:16.199
all the same. It's voice and you know this. But,

00:34:16.219 --> 00:34:18.860
yeah, you know, for those that do that do have

00:34:18.860 --> 00:34:22.039
issue with or put women in this particular box,

00:34:22.179 --> 00:34:25.179
you know, for working in this way, then, yeah,

00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:28.019
now look at it, you know, and, you know, that's

00:34:28.019 --> 00:34:31.099
taken me like a week to make. And I've, you know,

00:34:31.139 --> 00:34:33.900
I put my heart and soul into that. And the other

00:34:33.900 --> 00:34:35.500
thing with embroidery is because it's so accessible,

00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:39.300
you know, like obviously not everyone, but most

00:34:39.300 --> 00:34:42.679
people can get a lot of majority of the people

00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:44.780
of the world can have access to a needle in a

00:34:44.780 --> 00:34:47.880
thread. whether it's through making clothes or

00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:51.059
mending clothes or through embroidery in a more

00:34:51.059 --> 00:34:56.300
decorative or expressive or healing way, it doesn't

00:34:56.300 --> 00:35:00.940
kind of have borders. And I love that. All the

00:35:00.940 --> 00:35:03.380
countries I've ever been to, someone's embroidering.

00:35:04.019 --> 00:35:05.679
Yeah, and I think that's the thing. It doesn't

00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:08.599
have borders. It's a universal language. And

00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:10.239
I know it's a visual language, and I know you

00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:12.079
can say that about painting and this and that

00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:14.360
and the other, but like you say, painting always...

00:35:14.570 --> 00:35:17.110
got a break because men did painting or whatever

00:35:17.110 --> 00:35:20.090
it was but I think that's what adds to the it's

00:35:20.090 --> 00:35:22.929
like the unsaid value of that dress like there's

00:35:22.929 --> 00:35:25.250
so many layers to the dress and we will go into

00:35:25.250 --> 00:35:26.929
that at some point but I just think the fact

00:35:26.929 --> 00:35:30.449
that it's needlework which most people they don't

00:35:30.449 --> 00:35:32.130
they just don't take it seriously because it's

00:35:32.130 --> 00:35:36.070
so easy to do and then you've used it as a like

00:35:36.070 --> 00:35:39.010
a babel fish as a way of people from all different

00:35:39.010 --> 00:35:41.230
parts of the world to communicate all kinds of

00:35:41.230 --> 00:35:44.090
stories in a way that once you pay attention

00:35:44.090 --> 00:35:46.489
to the dress you can't ignore the stories like

00:35:46.489 --> 00:35:49.650
that's that's what I love about the dress is

00:35:49.650 --> 00:35:52.070
you can look at it and go oh it's a nice dress

00:35:52.070 --> 00:35:54.030
and then you can go oh there's a lot of needlework

00:35:54.030 --> 00:35:57.269
and then you can go those needlework appear to

00:35:57.269 --> 00:35:59.530
be from different places those needlework appear

00:35:59.530 --> 00:36:02.230
to be telling different stories oh my sweet lord

00:36:02.230 --> 00:36:04.329
look at the stories they're telling and so it

00:36:04.329 --> 00:36:06.769
goes you know and I've done similar it's not

00:36:06.769 --> 00:36:09.920
the same at all but like I did a collaborative

00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:12.280
thing of making a Christmas tree with a load

00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:14.139
of cross -stitched baubles on it. And in the

00:36:14.139 --> 00:36:16.260
end, we had like 600 baubles from around the

00:36:16.260 --> 00:36:18.019
world. And people go, oh, it's a tree with baubles.

00:36:18.099 --> 00:36:19.519
And then they go, oh, they're cross -stitched.

00:36:19.619 --> 00:36:21.139
And then they go, oh, but that one came from

00:36:21.139 --> 00:36:23.500
like Trinidad and Tobago or something. And that

00:36:23.500 --> 00:36:26.760
layering is such a good whammy because people

00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:29.000
are so conditioned to think one thing about needlework

00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:31.559
in the first place. And it feels like the dress

00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:34.639
is almost like the perfect encapsulation of that

00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:36.920
because there's about nine different journeys

00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:38.699
that people can go on when they stare at it.

00:36:38.889 --> 00:36:42.010
Thank you. Yeah, I hope that's the case. I think

00:36:42.010 --> 00:36:44.250
it's undoubtedly the case. It's just, I mean,

00:36:44.250 --> 00:36:47.469
so where was the first country that you went

00:36:47.469 --> 00:36:50.269
to when you decided it was going to go international?

00:36:50.429 --> 00:36:51.869
Did you think it would go international or were

00:36:51.869 --> 00:36:53.349
you just like, well, I'll try it with one group

00:36:53.349 --> 00:36:56.429
and see what happens? No, I hoped international

00:36:56.429 --> 00:36:58.949
because, yeah, I'm pretty well travelled as a

00:36:58.949 --> 00:37:01.769
child. So, yeah, there was always that intention,

00:37:01.949 --> 00:37:03.769
but I didn't know whether it would be possible.

00:37:03.909 --> 00:37:06.610
That was the tricky thing. But, yeah, so I wrote

00:37:06.610 --> 00:37:10.210
to... yes just everyone that i knew i had i was

00:37:10.210 --> 00:37:11.849
tutoring and for a little bit at the royal school

00:37:11.849 --> 00:37:13.989
of needlework not embroidery i was teaching them

00:37:13.989 --> 00:37:16.909
creative practice so i had some networks there

00:37:16.909 --> 00:37:20.230
also my art contacts but most importantly were

00:37:20.230 --> 00:37:22.630
my um my parents because we traveled so much

00:37:22.630 --> 00:37:24.909
they had contacts you know all over the place

00:37:24.909 --> 00:37:28.050
so it's just a lot of emails a lot of emails

00:37:28.050 --> 00:37:30.349
and you know a lot of people weren't interested

00:37:30.349 --> 00:37:33.489
and Also, I didn't have the skills then to really

00:37:33.489 --> 00:37:36.190
manage a project, you know, as vast as this.

00:37:36.210 --> 00:37:38.510
It was all like learning as I went and winging

00:37:38.510 --> 00:37:41.090
it for the first few years. Also, language barriers

00:37:41.090 --> 00:37:45.250
have been an issue and such forth. But, you know,

00:37:45.269 --> 00:37:48.670
trying to kind of clearly articulate my vision

00:37:48.670 --> 00:37:53.429
and intention. And, yeah, it was difficult to

00:37:53.429 --> 00:37:57.780
kind of have this. um have the entirety you know

00:37:57.780 --> 00:38:00.460
of what I what I had in my head it was hard to

00:38:00.460 --> 00:38:04.460
kind of get that out initially and but but then

00:38:04.460 --> 00:38:07.159
it but then it became easier and then more and

00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:09.679
more people got involved and then after about

00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:12.119
three or four years then it was just purely people

00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:15.099
writing to me to ask if their charity could be

00:38:15.099 --> 00:38:17.059
involved or their group could be involved or

00:38:17.059 --> 00:38:20.139
whether they could add a panel and that was lovely

00:38:20.139 --> 00:38:22.559
and then I just trusted that the right people

00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:25.530
were coming in at the right time I guess the

00:38:25.530 --> 00:38:28.510
because the RSN students were one of the first

00:38:28.510 --> 00:38:30.829
transfer people to stitch on it other than yourself.

00:38:30.989 --> 00:38:33.369
And as you said, you had a prior relationship

00:38:33.369 --> 00:38:35.570
with them. So that was probably a really useful

00:38:35.570 --> 00:38:39.190
transition ground, wasn't it? You learning how

00:38:39.190 --> 00:38:41.630
to explain the project to other people and then

00:38:41.630 --> 00:38:43.889
seeing what would happen when they're unleashed.

00:38:44.110 --> 00:38:47.070
And then exceptional embroidery skills just on

00:38:47.070 --> 00:38:49.590
the back of it as well. yes yeah it was beautiful

00:38:49.590 --> 00:38:52.289
and then they all the school then worked on it

00:38:52.289 --> 00:38:55.929
again in 2022 all the school foundation year

00:38:55.929 --> 00:38:58.989
and about three of the staff as well in one day

00:38:58.989 --> 00:39:01.789
they did hour sittings i think it was six at

00:39:01.789 --> 00:39:06.329
a time like all day it was incredible but yeah

00:39:06.329 --> 00:39:09.050
amazing quite a lot of time for those guys so

00:39:09.050 --> 00:39:12.010
so so okay let's because you mentioned it a couple

00:39:12.010 --> 00:39:14.320
of times Because I am interested. What I didn't

00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:16.119
want to do was I didn't want to, I could feel

00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:18.539
the conversation was going further and further

00:39:18.539 --> 00:39:19.920
back in time. And I'm like, no, we've got to

00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:21.360
keep talking about the dress. But we've talked

00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:22.500
about the dress for a minute. So I want to go

00:39:22.500 --> 00:39:25.800
back in time again now, because I like the way

00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:28.000
that we've nonchalantly mentioned the fact that

00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:30.579
you made a 15 foot high dress and all of these

00:39:30.579 --> 00:39:32.159
sorts of things, you know, as though that's just

00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:33.719
an everyday occurrence. And I'm interested to

00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:35.360
know how you get to that point. But you've also

00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:38.280
said you traveled a lot around as a child. So

00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:40.300
are you able to kind of tell me the backstory

00:39:40.300 --> 00:39:44.159
up to the point of? Say 2009, roughly speaking.

00:39:44.340 --> 00:39:47.480
Yeah, of course. So, yeah, I'm one of three girls.

00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:50.260
I've got two sisters, my best friends. And we

00:39:50.260 --> 00:39:52.619
have lived everywhere, really. So I was born

00:39:52.619 --> 00:39:55.019
in Venezuela. My father used to work in energy.

00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:57.920
So he began in Shell. Then he moved into oil.

00:39:57.940 --> 00:40:00.139
So he's in oil. Then he moved to hydrogen. And

00:40:00.139 --> 00:40:02.559
then he left Shell and began to work for renewable

00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:06.369
energy. So one of his jobs was called iogen,

00:40:06.510 --> 00:40:08.530
I think it was. And they used to turn straw into

00:40:08.530 --> 00:40:10.269
ethanol, that kind of thing. So it was a good

00:40:10.269 --> 00:40:14.230
arc. But it meant that every three or four years

00:40:14.230 --> 00:40:17.369
he'd be posted somewhere else. So we'd all move.

00:40:17.650 --> 00:40:20.630
So I was born in Venezuela. I'm the eldest. Then

00:40:20.630 --> 00:40:23.030
we moved to Barbados, then was back to England

00:40:23.030 --> 00:40:26.670
briefly. And then it was Nigeria, then Japan,

00:40:26.909 --> 00:40:32.960
then Holland, then Canada. But my sisters and

00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:35.320
I all came back to boarding school around the

00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:38.980
age of 10, which was pretty traumatic, if I'm

00:40:38.980 --> 00:40:44.559
honest. But also, I mean, we are so close, my

00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:47.840
sisters and I, and our friends became family.

00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:50.579
So it was a different life. I mean, I don't know

00:40:50.579 --> 00:40:53.500
anything different, but I think we all had to

00:40:53.500 --> 00:40:57.199
do a lot of work and healing and trying to understand.

00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:00.760
it's pretty traumatic being separated from your

00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:03.659
parents and we were a very close family so you

00:41:03.659 --> 00:41:05.380
know it was it was difficult but we had each

00:41:05.380 --> 00:41:09.179
other and like I feel like I'm in a very good

00:41:09.179 --> 00:41:11.239
place with that now and I'm grateful for that

00:41:11.239 --> 00:41:13.360
experience because it's taken me on the journey

00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:17.920
that I've been on and I've um yeah I mean a combination

00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:19.940
of that and also working with the dress I've

00:41:19.940 --> 00:41:24.260
done so much work on myself and therapy and meditation

00:41:24.260 --> 00:41:27.179
and all sorts so but yeah so school and then

00:41:27.179 --> 00:41:30.440
always just loved art wasn't really interested

00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:32.760
in anything else sports yes so art and sports

00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:35.800
I think I'm probably ADHD definitely neurodiverse

00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:39.280
um but I'm not like I don't need to go and get

00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:41.480
a certificate or anything but that's just the

00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:43.860
way my brain's always worked it's very fast I'm

00:41:43.860 --> 00:41:46.940
always on the go art sport art sport was always

00:41:46.940 --> 00:41:51.579
my thing and then I did a foundation degree in

00:41:51.579 --> 00:41:53.860
Wimbledon School of Art Absolutely fell in love

00:41:53.860 --> 00:41:56.519
with textiles during that year. Then I did a

00:41:56.519 --> 00:42:00.219
BA in Bristol, UWE, in Bower Ashton in textile

00:42:00.219 --> 00:42:03.420
design, which was just incredible. The course

00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:06.199
was run just for that period of time. I'm so

00:42:06.199 --> 00:42:09.059
blessed by this incredible fine artist called

00:42:09.059 --> 00:42:12.559
Andrew Savage, who I think for his final collection

00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:15.519
at St. Martin's made a collection of clothing

00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:18.659
that was buried in his garden for six months

00:42:18.659 --> 00:42:22.329
before. and something yeah and it was covered

00:42:22.329 --> 00:42:24.469
in mold and then he's like he's got this cast

00:42:24.469 --> 00:42:27.329
iron drain cover somewhere in some forest somewhere

00:42:27.329 --> 00:42:30.610
in england that's like nine carat 18 carat gold

00:42:30.610 --> 00:42:33.710
and he just does this kind of crazy stuff with

00:42:33.710 --> 00:42:36.650
materials yeah and we were kind of blowing stuff

00:42:36.650 --> 00:42:38.449
up and we were making things out of concrete

00:42:38.449 --> 00:42:40.889
and it was just there was not a repeat flower

00:42:40.889 --> 00:42:43.590
in sight the whole the whole course was completely

00:42:43.590 --> 00:42:46.809
incredible it blew my mind and in that time i

00:42:46.809 --> 00:42:52.559
realized what textiles could be And so in my

00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:55.019
final year there, I began working with dresses

00:42:55.019 --> 00:42:57.440
and that's how it all started. And I did this

00:42:57.440 --> 00:43:00.360
whole kind of dreamscape called Dreaming Dresses,

00:43:00.380 --> 00:43:02.579
I think it was. And I had all these really gnarly

00:43:02.579 --> 00:43:04.780
kind of installations of dresses rigged up like

00:43:04.780 --> 00:43:06.920
puppets. It was all quite dark and sinister.

00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:09.739
And then I had this rigged up something with

00:43:09.739 --> 00:43:12.840
a, what was it, like a tumble dryer drum. I went

00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:14.739
to the electronic department and they helped

00:43:14.739 --> 00:43:17.969
me make this kind of swirling. vista with this

00:43:17.969 --> 00:43:21.309
dress coming out it was very kind of um David

00:43:21.309 --> 00:43:23.389
Lynch that's probably what I'm coming to like

00:43:23.389 --> 00:43:26.369
very yeah that was the kind of thing I was into

00:43:26.369 --> 00:43:28.670
at the time so yeah pretty dark you know pretty

00:43:28.670 --> 00:43:31.909
pretty out there so then I did a an MA in visual

00:43:31.909 --> 00:43:33.949
language back at Wimbledon School of Art visual

00:43:33.949 --> 00:43:36.090
language and performance it was actually called

00:43:36.090 --> 00:43:39.550
okay so it was quite um random really there's

00:43:39.550 --> 00:43:41.690
only five of us on the course and there was an

00:43:41.690 --> 00:43:45.570
architect an actress producer and a sound designer

00:43:45.570 --> 00:43:47.750
and me so we're all coming from such different

00:43:47.750 --> 00:43:50.590
disciplines but in that year we were taught how

00:43:50.590 --> 00:43:55.309
to make films soundscapes uh light how to light

00:43:55.309 --> 00:43:57.530
things theatrically it was all about bringing

00:43:57.530 --> 00:44:00.889
liveness into work so there was me with all my

00:44:00.889 --> 00:44:03.849
garments and dresses you know that was my my

00:44:03.849 --> 00:44:06.269
vision but it taught me so much it was not a

00:44:06.269 --> 00:44:09.389
it was actually a really difficult year and I

00:44:09.389 --> 00:44:11.010
was always really struggling with the theory

00:44:11.010 --> 00:44:14.969
because I'm not a very well I'm not brilliant

00:44:14.969 --> 00:44:17.449
at writing I'm a bit dyslexic I get confused

00:44:17.449 --> 00:44:20.170
with words I'm much more visual I remember that

00:44:20.170 --> 00:44:23.070
being hard but it did teach me so much and I

00:44:23.070 --> 00:44:26.269
came out of that with this kind of like absolute

00:44:26.269 --> 00:44:29.929
epic kind of drive and hunger to just keep making

00:44:29.929 --> 00:44:33.210
and making and making and yeah so then that takes

00:44:33.210 --> 00:44:36.369
me into London um where I was for about 10 years

00:44:36.369 --> 00:44:40.840
I think and then now I'm in Somerset So other

00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:43.119
than the time that you put yourself in a box,

00:44:43.179 --> 00:44:45.360
it doesn't feel like you're someone that can

00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:48.800
be put in a box. Like, I mean, I'm curious about

00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:50.639
like when you travel the world like that as a

00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:53.719
child, like do you identify as being British

00:44:53.719 --> 00:44:57.440
or are you just like a human sort of? Human.

00:44:57.559 --> 00:45:00.460
It's exactly that, human. I have a very, I have

00:45:00.460 --> 00:45:02.300
like a well -spoken English accent from boarding

00:45:02.300 --> 00:45:06.000
school. That's where I got this. Before I went

00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.420
there, my accent was all over the place. I actually

00:45:08.420 --> 00:45:12.059
spoke to – I was at this dinner party in London,

00:45:12.139 --> 00:45:14.219
so this was about 15 years ago, and I was sitting

00:45:14.219 --> 00:45:18.460
next to someone who was a – someone that researches

00:45:18.460 --> 00:45:22.019
and understands speech and languages. Gosh, where

00:45:22.019 --> 00:45:25.900
have you been? Where do you live? What is going

00:45:25.900 --> 00:45:27.579
on with your accent? And he's like, I'm picking

00:45:27.579 --> 00:45:29.920
up Yoruba, I'm picking up this, I'm picking up

00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:33.420
Japan. It's just from all the different ways

00:45:33.420 --> 00:45:36.079
of – seeking and speaking my dad's also Scottish

00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:37.820
so I've got a bit of probably that in there as

00:45:37.820 --> 00:45:40.980
well right just an aside is it McLeod as in like

00:45:40.980 --> 00:45:43.980
because I went to uh the Isle of Lewis and there's

00:45:43.980 --> 00:45:46.280
a lot of McLeods to be found over there that's

00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:48.360
where we're originally from yeah is it oh man

00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:50.539
you guys make good black pudding but that's an

00:45:50.539 --> 00:45:53.400
aside so presumably you were in those countries

00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:55.099
for long enough to learn the languages as well

00:45:55.500 --> 00:45:58.579
I would have been if I had that blessing of being

00:45:58.579 --> 00:46:01.300
able to learn languages. Yeah, I mean, I feel

00:46:01.300 --> 00:46:04.659
like I'm very familiar. Yeah, I'm not very blessed

00:46:04.659 --> 00:46:06.840
in that way. One of my sisters is great at languages,

00:46:07.019 --> 00:46:09.840
but I never was. But yeah, certainly basics,

00:46:10.059 --> 00:46:13.639
like, you know, getting around, definitely. Yeah,

00:46:13.739 --> 00:46:17.059
and also the customs and traditions. Yeah, and

00:46:17.059 --> 00:46:18.900
I guess they've all been imprinted on your background

00:46:18.900 --> 00:46:21.679
so that then something like the dress comes along

00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:23.820
and you've just got a confidence because you

00:46:23.820 --> 00:46:26.000
know that there'll be these places and that the

00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:28.519
outcomes can be achieved, even if you're not

00:46:28.519 --> 00:46:31.780
looking at the detail. Yeah, yeah, I think the

00:46:31.780 --> 00:46:34.219
world doesn't feel like a vast unknown place

00:46:34.219 --> 00:46:37.300
to me. I think I've travelled so much, I feel

00:46:37.300 --> 00:46:41.880
like it's, I have a, yeah, I have experiences.

00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:47.369
That's so nice. Yeah. The flip side of it is

00:46:47.369 --> 00:46:51.030
not feeling rooted. So until I moved to Somerset

00:46:51.030 --> 00:46:53.449
and became a mum, I had no idea really where

00:46:53.449 --> 00:46:56.570
I belonged or didn't have a feeling of kind of

00:46:56.570 --> 00:46:59.449
security anywhere because I was just like always

00:46:59.449 --> 00:47:03.090
moving. And I mean, from school, we changed dorms

00:47:03.090 --> 00:47:04.989
every term, you know, so we'd be in three different

00:47:04.989 --> 00:47:07.769
bedrooms a year. And then, you know, when we

00:47:07.769 --> 00:47:10.849
were back at home, we'd often be moving and stuff.

00:47:10.889 --> 00:47:14.170
So it was just. And then university always moving

00:47:14.170 --> 00:47:16.809
and then, you know, being in my 20s, always moving.

00:47:16.909 --> 00:47:19.670
And so I think, yeah, the experiences are rich

00:47:19.670 --> 00:47:22.429
and incredible. And then, you know, they give

00:47:22.429 --> 00:47:24.789
you a very, I think, wide perspective on life

00:47:24.789 --> 00:47:28.110
and an understanding of or more of an understanding

00:47:28.110 --> 00:47:33.329
of people. But also then in my own self, I was

00:47:33.329 --> 00:47:36.610
kind of a bit wayward and unanchored and insecure,

00:47:36.949 --> 00:47:39.730
I think. Yeah. I mean, Maslow's hierarchy of

00:47:39.730 --> 00:47:41.809
needs and all that, isn't it? Having a stable

00:47:41.809 --> 00:47:43.650
piece of ground under your feet is a fundamental.

00:47:43.789 --> 00:47:47.010
I'd imagine that's why your sisters are your

00:47:47.010 --> 00:47:49.210
best friends, because you are the stable ground

00:47:49.210 --> 00:47:51.730
for each other. Yes, exactly. And we all know

00:47:51.730 --> 00:47:53.510
exactly what we've been through. We've been through

00:47:53.510 --> 00:47:57.409
the same, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing.

00:47:57.530 --> 00:48:02.400
OK. There are several. in the dress I mean maybe

00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:04.400
we should talk about the dress as though no one's

00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:06.219
heard about it because I don't feel like we've

00:48:06.219 --> 00:48:07.920
done that actually that would be quite a good

00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:10.300
idea could you describe the dress please yeah

00:48:10.300 --> 00:48:12.960
should I also give you some stats as well about

00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:14.800
like go on yeah because there are some awesome

00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:17.219
stats I like the one about like flying on a plane

00:48:17.219 --> 00:48:20.699
and all that but yeah go for it please So the

00:48:20.699 --> 00:48:23.239
red dress involves the stitches and voices of

00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:26.659
380 different embroiderers from 51 countries

00:48:26.659 --> 00:48:30.579
around the world. So it's 367 women and girls

00:48:30.579 --> 00:48:33.019
have worked on the dress, 11 men and boys and

00:48:33.019 --> 00:48:38.300
two non -binary individuals. The dress is made

00:48:38.300 --> 00:48:42.500
of 87 panels of burgundy silk dupion. It consists

00:48:42.500 --> 00:48:44.820
of two different pieces. It's a bodice. It's

00:48:44.820 --> 00:48:49.190
a very... fitted bodice boned fitted bodice with

00:48:49.190 --> 00:48:52.469
long sleeves and then a kind of vast and expansive

00:48:52.469 --> 00:48:55.530
skirt which is kind of like a bell shape so the

00:48:55.530 --> 00:48:58.929
idea was not to have the dress rooted in any

00:48:58.929 --> 00:49:01.889
particular time cultural place but to have a

00:49:01.889 --> 00:49:05.210
dress definitely looks so it was inspired by

00:49:05.210 --> 00:49:08.090
ceremonial robes and military uniforms they were

00:49:08.090 --> 00:49:10.829
the two main themes so I think it definitely

00:49:10.829 --> 00:49:16.050
looks better than special. it looks kind of formal

00:49:16.050 --> 00:49:20.610
it looks kind of grand but it doesn't I hope

00:49:20.610 --> 00:49:23.949
I think someone wrote the other day you know

00:49:23.949 --> 00:49:26.449
it could be in India it could be like an Indian

00:49:26.449 --> 00:49:28.409
dress it could be somewhere in Saudi Arabia it

00:49:28.409 --> 00:49:31.829
could be somewhere in England it could be South

00:49:31.829 --> 00:49:35.369
America it's trying not to be anywhere too specific

00:49:35.369 --> 00:49:40.449
but it is it's empowering to wear empowering

00:49:40.449 --> 00:49:44.980
you know the idea of the military lines the tailoring

00:49:44.980 --> 00:49:47.719
was to give the dress this kind of strength it's

00:49:47.719 --> 00:49:49.860
not about attacking anyone or fighting it's about

00:49:49.860 --> 00:49:53.980
this strength of self it's about celebrating

00:49:53.980 --> 00:49:56.840
and accentuating the female body the curves like

00:49:56.840 --> 00:50:00.119
every every pattern piece is there's no straight

00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:03.440
lines in the dress it's all curves when Gail

00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:05.659
my collaborator was creating the pattern everything

00:50:05.659 --> 00:50:08.480
is curved and We try and really work with the

00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:10.780
shape of the woman's body to create beautiful

00:50:10.780 --> 00:50:14.320
lines. The bodice is fixed, was a fixed shape.

00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:17.239
The skirt has totally evolved over time and place.

00:50:17.579 --> 00:50:21.420
So it began literally as just a long rectangle

00:50:21.420 --> 00:50:24.480
off the roll and then it was pleated at the top

00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:26.739
and then slowly but surely it's been kind of

00:50:26.739 --> 00:50:29.000
altered and moved, taken lots of the weight out

00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:31.909
the top. put go days in at the bottom and then

00:50:31.909 --> 00:50:34.610
at one point we dropped the waistline down by

00:50:34.610 --> 00:50:37.110
about a foot to then create the train down the

00:50:37.110 --> 00:50:39.349
back so everything has this kind of slightly

00:50:39.349 --> 00:50:42.710
backward leaning sloping uh feeling on the skirt

00:50:42.710 --> 00:50:46.269
and the panels are yeah completely diverse the

00:50:46.269 --> 00:50:49.010
embroiderers all use their own threads so you

00:50:49.010 --> 00:50:51.769
have everything from hand dyed cottons to silk

00:50:51.769 --> 00:50:54.650
to sequins there's even a beetle scarab shell

00:50:54.650 --> 00:50:59.090
on there there's paper there's a seashell there's

00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:02.840
There's wool, there's crystals, there's pearls,

00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:07.039
there's everything. And in terms of the embroidery,

00:51:07.420 --> 00:51:11.059
the brief was very, very open. It was to create

00:51:11.059 --> 00:51:13.940
a piece of work that articulates your identity

00:51:13.940 --> 00:51:16.760
and the culture that you're from and inviting

00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:19.920
the embroiderers to share. their voice, what

00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:24.039
do they want to tell the world. And you see lots

00:51:24.039 --> 00:51:26.059
of traditional motifs, particularly from the

00:51:26.059 --> 00:51:29.239
women from South America. You can almost locate

00:51:29.239 --> 00:51:32.139
their embroidery to a specific town or even family

00:51:32.139 --> 00:51:35.099
from what they've created. Interestingly, there's

00:51:35.099 --> 00:51:38.260
a panel from San Juan Chimula in Chiapas. Hilaria

00:51:38.260 --> 00:51:41.219
Lopez -Patistan, who was 17 at the time, created

00:51:41.219 --> 00:51:44.699
that. Beautiful. And last year in South Africa.

00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:47.340
One of the audience came to me and said, is that

00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:49.579
created in San Juan Chamula? And I said, yeah,

00:51:49.659 --> 00:51:52.099
it totally is. It's exactly where it was created.

00:51:52.219 --> 00:51:55.199
And they just recognized it. And so there's lots

00:51:55.199 --> 00:51:57.760
of that. And then there are lots of abstract

00:51:57.760 --> 00:52:01.000
pieces, lots of pieces inspired by nature, birds.

00:52:01.059 --> 00:52:04.000
There's lots of text. And then you have the pieces

00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.059
which are generally done in quite simple stitches,

00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:12.280
but are kind of profound stories, memories, protests.

00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:16.500
experiences that you know can absolutely you

00:52:16.500 --> 00:52:18.679
know just melt your heart break your heart bring

00:52:18.679 --> 00:52:21.559
you to the floor they're so powerful and I think

00:52:21.559 --> 00:52:23.659
people always ask me oh what's your favorite

00:52:23.659 --> 00:52:26.679
panel and it's like for me I could never it's

00:52:26.679 --> 00:52:29.099
like choosing my favorite child like I feel so

00:52:29.099 --> 00:52:31.960
connected to all of the embroidery on the dress

00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:36.170
and and the embroiderers um but what I love is

00:52:36.170 --> 00:52:38.670
that I now feel and it finally happened in the

00:52:38.670 --> 00:52:41.289
last kind of year or so that the dress now they

00:52:41.289 --> 00:52:43.949
all work together they're all a dialogue there's

00:52:43.949 --> 00:52:48.070
a flow now like through the embroidery and after

00:52:48.070 --> 00:52:50.269
I finally managed to be able to get funding from

00:52:50.269 --> 00:52:53.010
2020 onwards and we were also beginning to do

00:52:53.010 --> 00:52:55.130
museum exhibitions it meant that the dress could

00:52:55.130 --> 00:52:58.369
be worked on directly rather than me sending

00:52:58.369 --> 00:53:00.860
out a panel in the post So that was beautiful

00:53:00.860 --> 00:53:03.199
because it gave the embroiderers the opportunity

00:53:03.199 --> 00:53:07.400
to respond to what was already on the dress and

00:53:07.400 --> 00:53:09.579
also go near another piece. And, you know, so

00:53:09.579 --> 00:53:12.619
you get these very kind of beautiful and poignant

00:53:12.619 --> 00:53:16.000
kind of conversations also happening. Yeah, so

00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:19.659
I just love, I love the community voice, the

00:53:19.659 --> 00:53:22.219
combined voice. That's my favourite part when

00:53:22.219 --> 00:53:24.340
I look at it now. Yeah, that's a fascinating

00:53:24.340 --> 00:53:26.500
alchemy, isn't it? Because you can do collaborative

00:53:26.500 --> 00:53:29.239
projects where people work in isolation and that's...

00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:33.039
got its own magnificence but like you say if

00:53:33.039 --> 00:53:35.860
you can then have people from different parts

00:53:35.860 --> 00:53:38.960
of the world who because I guess you know you've

00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:40.960
got pieces from Kosovo you've got pieces from

00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:43.400
Bosnia Herzegovina those have got really strong

00:53:43.400 --> 00:53:48.000
storylines behind them Rwanda and then I guess

00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:50.119
when other people see those and you're telling

00:53:50.119 --> 00:53:53.539
the stories of those that probably completely

00:53:53.539 --> 00:53:56.420
disrupts their initial thinking about what they

00:53:56.420 --> 00:53:58.599
might stitch and gives them an opportunity to

00:53:58.599 --> 00:54:01.400
reconsider. And I mean, that's magic, right?

00:54:01.920 --> 00:54:04.260
Yeah, it is.